This is the third post in my Deprogramming Series about submission. You can read Part One HERE and Part Two HERE. At the end of Part Two I asked a question that we’ll be answering in this post:
What if you are a wife, and your husband is not asking you to sin; he just doesn’t agree with you on things. How do you come to a final decision on something when you’ve reached an impasse?
Common Sense and Mutuality
I want to first come at this from a common sense standpoint. Let’s set aside the husband/wife thing for a minute and just pretend we are talking about two human beings. Two Wemmicks, if you will. They can be two girls or two boys or a boy and a girl. They can be a variety of Wemmick colors. They can be roommates, siblings, co-workers, board members, or whatever you want them to be.
Let’s say that the two Wemmicks don’t agree, but a decision must be made. There are only two of them, so a majority vote cannot be taken. They are equals, so there is no “bigger or better” Wemmick that gets to make the decision. Oh my. There is no simplistic, clear-cut, quick answer to this. It is a Conundrum. Is there a wringing of hands? What to do?! What to do?!
A positive outcome is almost always a possibility when you have mutuality. Mutual respect. Mutual interest. Mutual goals. Mutual honor. Mutual concern. Will there be compromise? Most likely. Maybe after talking it out, thinking about it over time, and coming together to talk again, there will be a meeting of minds. But if not, compromises can be made, and things can move forward. Sometimes one party will defer to the other. But which party will that be? It won’t be the same party every time. Why? Because of mutuality.
Here’s a great definition of mutuality:
“Mutuality is a way of being with another person which promotes the growth and well-being of one’s self and the other person by means of clear communication and empathetic understanding.” Patricia Evans – The Verbally Abusive Relationship.
In my opinion, that should (but sadly, doesn’t) describe every single Christian marriage. If Christians can’t get that right, who can? We’ve got the perfect model for this in the Triune, Relational God Who is unified in all decisions. God the Father doesn’t over-ride God the Son or God the Spirit. They are One.
In a similar way, a husband and wife are One Flesh. Heirs Together. The ideal situation is to discuss major decisions using “clear communication and empathetic understanding” and make them together. When one person takes on the burden of making all the decisions unilaterally, they miss out on opportunities to truly know and love another human life. To give and take. To capitalize on one another’s strengths and knowledge and experience. To experience real intimacy and oneness.
Some Verses are Not More True than Other Verses
Verses about marriage do not trump the rest of the Word of God. All the verses about relationships apply to marriage as well. The verses on marriage ADD to the picture. They don’t make a SEPARATE picture. So when you read this:
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. (James 2:8-9)
That doesn’t just apply in all human relationships outside of marriage. It applies in marriage too. Partiality is a sin. Period. Or what about this one:
Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. 15 This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. 18 And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. (James 3:13-18)
I don’t read any qualifiers here. It doesn’t read, “open to reason (unless you are a husband dealing with your wife), full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.” I could make this post very, very long if I just copied all the passages in the New Testament alone that spoke about human relationships. They far outnumber the ones that just focus on marriage.
When we read verses like Ephesians 5:22-24, we ADD that to the wealth of wisdom already given in the rest of Scripture.
Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
And we read this in context, of course. These verses precede, presuppose, and dovetail with the following:
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. (Ephesians 5: 25-30)
A Christian couple will strive for mutual respect for the interests of one another. Neither one trying to change the other into their own image – but appreciating the differences. Respecting boundaries. Honoring the other person. Being One and also enjoying the uniqueness of one another.
Trouble in Paradise
Rigid ideas about how things “ought to be done” can create all kinds of trouble in a marriage relationship. Let’s say a wife’s friends all home school and wear skirts. Plus all the blogs she reads say you aren’t godly unless you do. But the wife’s husband doesn’t want her to wear skirts and wants the kids to go to school. In homes like this, it often goes one of two ways:
1. The wife, decked out in her skirt with long hair up in a bun, nags, blames, shames, whines, complains, rages, and morphs into a martyr. The husband, feeling like a louse, succumbs to her toddler tantrums and lets her have her way.
2. The wife wants to talk. She nervously brings up the subject and timidly asks if there’s a possibility she could be allowed to home school their kids. She is met with silence. So she ventures forward with more information about the benefits of home education. The husband coldly says, “Why do you always make such a big deal out of everything? What is your problem? Why can’t you just let me lead our family? You always want to make all the decisions. You want to wear the pants. Are you being obedient to God’s Word? Why do you have to nag me about this? I’ve made the decision, as I should. It’s final. Why can’t you just trust God?” The wife, shame-faced, slinks into her corner wondering why she even brought it up.
A Real Christian Marriage
Neither of the above scenarios is healthy. I wonder if God intended for a marriage relationship to look more like this:
3. A husband and wife who set aside time together every week to discuss life, the kids, how they are doing as a family and as a couple, etc. have a mutual discussion about home education. The husband would like to put his kids in public school. The wife would like to try home schooling them. They hash things out together, respecting one another’s input and ideas. Over the course of a few weeks, after talking together and thinking through everything separately, they decide to try home schooling for a year with the option to change course the following year if either one doesn’t feel it is working out.
In this last scenario there was mutual care and concern for the other person. There was an interest in what the other person was thinking and feeling. Both parties honored one another as precious human beings, made in the image of God. Both parties showed love toward one another by listening, sharing openly, being vulnerable, and being willing to bend, if necessary. They both desired to make a decision that was mutually satisfying to each one, knowing they could always revisit the issue the following year and make changes, if necessary.
Compare this last example to what one blogger believes is the only proper way of dealing with decision making in a marriage relationship:
He is to make these decisions, not us. This does not matter if he is saved, actively attending church, etc. Unless he is asking you to do something that is morally wrong, you need to honor his decisions. He is responsible for determining your children’s education and training your children at home. He is responsible for whether you are a keeper at home or not.
While this idea is a simple formula to apply and measure, it leaves out the application of wisdom because it dismisses so much of Scripture.
But What if My Husband and I Can’t Even TALK?
I’m going to wrap this up by saying that we don’t want to be like the wife in scenario #1 above. That’s not God’s plan for women. We also don’t want to be the frightened woman in scenario #2. That’s not God’s plan for women either.
So the question that I think might be still swimming around in some heads is this:
I’ve tried having mutual conversations with my spouse, but we never get anywhere. He’s always right. My opinions matter little to him. He tends to dismiss and minimize any of my concerns. Every attempt on my part to engage in a meeting of the minds is met with either hostility or laughter. I often leave conversations feeling guilty. Like I did something wrong to even bring up an issue. I often feel confused and stuck. What do I do?
And that, my courageous and visionary friends, will be the subject of my next series.
Excellent series Natalie. This is so needed in the conservative Christian community. You may take a lot of heat from certain quarters but I think you are preaching the truth. Many blessings.
Yes. I’m losing friends and “fans.” But God had to take me through hell to get me here, and there’s a reason for that. I’m no longer reading the Bible in parts with presuppositions based on what I’ve been taught by other people. I really want to read it with fresh eyes for what the entire book is saying to us. As I do that, so much confusion is clearing up! It presents such a beautiful picture that offers hope to all human beings. I just read a book about a couple of sisters who stood against slavery. Some of their greatest enemies were Christians who used the Bible to defend slavery. We can use the Bible piecemeal to defend just about anything if we set our creative brains to it. I think today’s greatest struggles are standing against racism and misogyny in the culture and in the church—and defending the lives of the unborn. Minorities, women, and children are largely unprotected. This is completely antithetical to God’s heart for the human race.
I’m writing a book that’s coming out with Waterbrook next September right now called 9 Thoughts That Can Change Your Marriage. And one of the underlying premises of that book is that too often we in the Christian community think there are only 5 passages that apply to marriage: Genesis 1-3, Proverbs 31, Song of Songs, Ephesians 5, and 1 Peter 3. What if the rest of the Bible actually was relevant in marriage, too? I just LOVE that you brought this up and totally agree.
YOU GO GIRL! I’d love to review it when it comes out.
Good blog post. Bringing common sense into the picture is wise. Bringing in all the Bible verses that talk about relationships (both within marriage and not) is right. Thanks for this series.
I am so grateful for this series Natalie. Every time I get the e-mail with a new post I eagerly read it and then re-read it multiple times and hoping it will sink deep into my heart. You are doing a wonderful service by being so honest, open and articulate about your own journey with this. As I have swerved way too far one way with submission the last few months (which is: it’s all about him to the point of obliterating yourself) after spending years to the extreme in the other way (submission? HAH!) – finding the balance for me and my marriage is a struggle but I want to keep moving forward and find and know the real truth of God and not just what we have parroted for years because it worked for someone else or a certain time. Thank you for your words and discussion – they give me so much hope.
I just prayed for you, Jennifer. I appreciate your letting me know that it is a help to you. Pray that I do not swerve in a wrong direction. I want to bank on God’s Word alone.
You may also like Lou Priolo’s teachings — http://loupriolo.com/free-audio/ He’s a Biblical counselor. He maintains the Biblical roles in marriage, but teaches them in balance with the rest of scripture. It was freeing for me to hear how women should address sin issues in their husband and should be able to talk freely with their husbands. It was freeing to hear that if a married person frequently is unable/unwilling to resolve issues, it could be a sin problem. He also teaches from Ephesians 5 that a husband is responsible to help his wife grow more beautiful in the Lord, and he explains it in such a beautiful way.
Thank you for sharing that link, Anne!
What if, in your scenario, the father wants to homeschool and the mother refuses. We know two families in this situation. Both parents in both families are Christians who truly love the Lord. The fathers feel that public school is hurtful to the children. What if they are Biblically convicted that homeschooling is the right choice for raising their children in the fear of the Lord and the mothers don’t want to do it. It’s too much work, they don’t feel qualified, they don’t want to be tied to the home all day, etc. What should the husband do who will answer to God one day for the raising of his/His children. As it stands, both fathers are ‘living with their wives in an understanding way’ and their children remain in public school. Both couples have healthy communication, they like each other, they enjoy time together, they discuss together, but they just don’t agree. One of the fathers comes home from work every night and does his best to re-educate while the mother has been out and about all day going to Bible Studies, ‘ministering at church’, lunching with friends, and participating in many Godly activities. Do you think these wives should be encouraged to submit to their husbands? How do you think the elders of their churches should counsel these couples? How should I, as the friend of the wives, counsel them? At some point, doesn’t the husband get the final say as head of the home and shouldn’t the wife submit and obey him even if she doesn’t want to? Obviously he should not abuse his authority; and I think these two husbands I know are very careful not to do so, but when considering all of scripture, can’t they end up sinning in the area of raising their children in the fear of the Lord in the name of loving, nourishing and cherishing their wives? What about his responsibility to sanctify her and cleanse her with the washing of the word? Those verses are talking about a husband desiring change in his wife-change towards Godliness-and he’s commanded to facilitate that change.
Pat, thank you for your question. I started writing an answer and realized I should just write a post about this. I know you are not the only one wondering about these kinds of things. I’ll try to get something published in the next few days.
Yay! Yay! Yay! I can’t say Yay enough.
So well done. I absolutely agree 100%. (and thanks for linking to my post on submission/Mark Driscoll today. I found you through that link and have been reading like crazy!)
I’m sure I’ll be linking to you again. This is the second time in recent days I’ve been cheering on your blog. (I’ve read a few of your articles on abuse recently. Excellent.) A friend of mine told me about you. You are one of the few women I am aware of with a healthy marriage – who gets this stuff.
Dear Natalie,
I pray you and your family are well in Jesus’ name. Also, congratulations to your son on his wedding, which looked very beautiful. May the Lord build and establish their house and may their fountain be blessed in Jesus’ name.
I have not been on your site in quite a while and have just been reading your latest series on Deprogramming – (Christian and Lies cannot be in the same sentence). Much of your current series centres on submission, with that between husband and wife being in many of the examples put forth.
I am a Christian, but not from a ‘Conservative’ Christian community and I am a relatively young mother (married 4 years). From what I understand of these writings you are seeking to delineate or expound what submission or Christian relationships should be and explore aspects of self-identity and personal responsibility before God. Amidst the comments I also noted that the teachings of others have been a framework in nature of the submission relationship and of course there is a social and cultural context for women of similar circumstance.
I would like to gently entreat you, that we must consider whether these writings are for the edification of the Body of Christ or for the expression of self. Obedience to one’s husband is an important part of marriage and reflecting the mystery of the union of Christ and His bride foreshadowed in what God had put together all the way back in Eden. Is the Church of Jesus Christ a submitted obedient ‘no matter what’ to their Lord bride or is it a self animated, self-directing and self-expressing entity which like the image of Diana, fell from Jupiter (Acts 19:35)?
When a woman obeys their husband in all matters, calling Him Lord, as Sarah (1Pet3:6), she is honouring her heavenly Father who ordained that he be her husband and has called him to be head of the woman as Christ is his head. The sovereignty lies with us as women to choose in humility to lift up our head as Christ should be lifted up such that all men are drawn unto him. This is the way that is pleasing to our heavenly father and supercedes, theology, culture and religious practice. Men of course are fallible but if we married we must cleave unto our husbands and be one flesh with them seeking unity in the spirit and the bond of peace. If a husband’s failings wound a wife repeatedly I would encourgae that wife in love and truth to turn to Yah (1Pet 3:1), to seek him to be brought to that place of completeness in Jesus’ Christ. A man who forsakes, cheats on or abuses his wife is sinning against his own flesh (Eph 5:28) and seeking not only to remove himself from the body given to him but from the Covenant with God that joined them. Such wives should intercede for their husband such that the man would not be as Esau, despising his inheritence and the very thing God put into his hands (Rom9:13).
Therefore sovereignty and choice always lies with the individual, to uphold the testimony of Jesus Christ or seek another way. Think of the 2 harlots before Solomon and the baby (1Kings 3:16+). The institutional church system with its doctrine may not have directed husbands and wives to repent of sin and receive the wisdom, knowledge and understanding of the Holy Ghost of the scriptures and in all matters TOGETHER 1 Cor 14:35 (which is why women read SO many books).
By the way Natalie, how often do you and your husband read the bible together.
Organisations may not have been able to teach love and guide men by true eldership to forsake personal ambition and hear and follow Jesus.
The answer however is never exaltation of self. Otherwise we will be bracing ourselves for new-wave feminism, the Jezebel Spirit or both coming online amongst “Conservative” Christian women. In all things let us lift up the name of Jesus, show forth His light and the blessings he has given us.
Let us pray that the victory of Christ is manifested in the lives of even our enemies and those who have wounded us. I pray that all the work of Satan to divide and destroy Christian marriages would be broken in the name of Jesus and every saint of God would be released from pride and the worship of intellect.
Lets all go lower to win the war. God bless you Natalie, may wars be waged by the hosts of Yahweh in heaven and on earth for your deliverance from these current trials. May our Father sanctify your marriage and as one flesh may you withstand arrayed in the helmet of salvation, breastplate of righteousness, loins girt with truth, feel shod in the preparation of the gospel of peace, holding the shield of faith and USING the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. May the rebuke of Satan in your life come from the Lord’s throne and may your filthy rags be changed for the robes of righteousness Zech3.
Resist the devil and he will flee.
Renee
Renee, I’d like to address your comment in a blog post. It’s a lengthy comment that requires a lengthy response better suited to a post.