In a recent post about submission, the following comment came in. I started commenting back, and after waxing and waning for a while, I realized I was writing a post, not a comment. Here is the comment with my response immediately following:
What if, in your scenario, the father wants to homeschool and the mother refuses? We know two families in this situation. Both parents in both families are Christians who truly love the Lord. The fathers feel that public school is hurtful to the children. What if they are Biblically convicted that homeschooling is the right choice for raising their children in the fear of the Lord, and the mothers don’t want to do it? It’s too much work, they don’t feel qualified, they don’t want to be tied to the home all day, etc. What should the husband do who will answer to God one day for the raising of his/His children?
As it stands, both fathers are ‘living with their wives in an understanding way’ and their children remain in public school. Both couples have healthy communication, they like each other, they enjoy time together, they discuss together, but they just don’t agree. One of the fathers comes home from work every night and does his best to re-educate while the mother has been out and about all day going to Bible Studies, ‘ministering at church’, lunching with friends, and participating in many Godly activities.
Do you think these wives should be encouraged to submit to their husbands? How do you think the elders of their churches should counsel these couples? How should I, as the friend of the wives, counsel them? At some point, doesn’t the husband get the final say as head of the home and shouldn’t the wife submit and obey him even if she doesn’t want to? Obviously he should not abuse his authority; and I think these two husbands I know are very careful not to do so, but when considering all of scripture, can’t they end up sinning in the area of raising their children in the fear of the Lord in the name of loving, nourishing and cherishing their wives? What about his responsibility to sanctify her and cleanse her with the washing of the word? Those verses are talking about a husband desiring change in his wife-change towards Godliness-and he’s commanded to facilitate that change.
The Judgement Day
***TRIGGER WARNING***
Picture this: it’s the Judgement Day, and you are standing next to your spouse and kids. Maybe your family of origin too. Maybe your friends from college. Hey, there’s a whole crowd of people you recognize all around you. It’s like “This is Your Life” from Sesame Street.
Suddenly it’s your turn to stand before God. You shuffle to the front, head hanging down, and this is what you hear.
I’m going to go over all the things you did wrong on earth. Let’s start with your dad. When he molested you, you had a chance to tell him “no,” and you didn’t. You enabled him to abuse you. Bad girl. Strike One.
And how about your children? One of them never got saved. I’ll be sending him to hell today. Say good bye, and know that it is because you didn’t use the right curriculum when you homeschooled. Not only that, but you didn’t homeschool him to the very end of his 18th year of life. This set up a very slippery slope, and he went sliding. Bad girl. Strike Two.
Let’s talk about your husband. He wanted to move to South Carolina, but you said “no” because of all the mold hanging from the trees that made you sick every day when you visited. You should have submitted and moved. You could have gutted it out. But because you didn’t do as your husband wished, he ended up meeting that lovely girl at a church picnic and, well, you know the rest of the sad story. What could he do? Bad girl. Strike Three.”
(Three days later…)
“And so, we wrap it all up now, my sinful child. Do you see the ways you have caused all these people around you to sin? Yes, my dear. I’m holding you personally responsible not only for all of your choices, but for all of their choices too. Welcome to Heaven.”
I set up that little nightmare to make a point. When those men stand before God one day, will God judge them for their wives’ choices? I don’t see that anywhere in the Bible either explicitly stated or implied. Wives are not responsible for their husbands’ choices, and husbands are not responsible for their wives’ choices. We are responsible TO one another, but not FOR one another. Does that make sense?
Let’s play this out and pretend these guys “get their final say” and force their unwilling wives to homeschool. Do you think that would be healthy for the kids? Their mom has zero interest or conviction. She is being coerced or guilted into doing it. She is feeling angry and trapped. Will she make a motivated teacher for her kids? Will the ongoing conflict that results from being manipulated into doing something create a gracious, joyful atmosphere in the home? I can see this as a set up for all kinds of problems.
Home schooling is a great option, and I’m all about encouraging women to courageously go that route if they can, but God is not going to judge any of us on the educational choice we made for our kids. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is not love, joy, peace, and home education. The greatest commands are not love the Lord thy God, love thy neighbor, and home educate.
I know a few home educating families with kids that are going to hell in a hand basket. I also know private and public schooled kids who are on fire for Christ. I was one of them. Public school all the way. The hearts of our children are reached through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. It is helpful for them to see lives well lived, love, empathy, Truth, honor, humility, repentance, etc. But home education is not required for salvation, perfection, or a life lived to the glory of God. If it was, all children who can’t be home educated because their mom is dead or sick or a single mom who has to work – are without hope. And we know that’s simply not true.
Forcing a wife to do what a husband wants, however noble that activity, is not submission. It’s coercion. And that is sinful. Be thankful these men are choosing not to sin in that way. In other words, what those men are currently doing – having conversations, praying for their wives, loving their families, trusting and obeying God, is exactly what the Bible says they should be doing. What you and the elders in your church and anyone else who cares about these families should do – is commend those men, pray for them, and encourage them.
We can desire change in a person, and that motivates us to love them and pray for them, but we cannot force a change. Only God can do that. I don’t see anywhere in God’s Word a command for the husband to force his wife to do whatever he wants her to do, even if it is a good thing. It’s a good thing to eat healthy too. But if a husband demands that his wife only make meals he wants to eat, he is not being loving or understanding. He’s being unreasonably obstinate and selfish. That’s sinful.
Healthy individuals have conversations. They have mutual empathy. They respect one another. They care about one another and work together. There isn’t one that gets his/her way every single time. That the man makes all the decisions unilaterally may sound like a Biblical truism, but it’s not. Back in the 18oo’s people used the Bible to back up men who beat up their wives. It was OK as long as it didn’t cause death or extreme injury. The wife belonged to the husband as property.
That appalls us now. I think 100 years from now Christians will be appalled at the current Christian attitudes toward women. We don’t approve of beating them anymore (although we often look the other way or tell the wife to “buck up” and “suffer like Christ”), but we approve of silencing them. Keeping them from having their own minds, thoughts, feelings, ideas, gifts, etc.. Emotional abuse is rampant in Christian circles. Misogyny is alive and kicking in the church.
One of the reasons people get into these pickles in the first place is because they don’t have these kinds of game-changing conversations BEFORE they tie the knot. If a man wants to home educate his kids, he should have married a woman who wanted to do that, too. If he didn’t, he needs to do what these men are doing. Love them for who they are—the woman they DID choose to marry. Perhaps God will lay the desire to home educate on their hearts in His own timing, but it isn’t your responsibility or the elders’ responsibility to dictate to another human being what they ought to do. Accidental Pharisees is a great resource to learn more about how we fall into this kind of thing regularly without even realizing it.
What about his responsibility to sanctify her and cleanse her with the washing of the word? Those verses are talking about a husband desiring change in his wife-change towards Godliness-and he’s commanded to facilitate that change.
Yes, but are those verses encouraging husbands to make sure their wives home educate their children? No. Growing in sanctification will be a different process for every single person. How we educate our children has nothing to do with our personal, spiritual growth. It may affect our spiritual journey and the spiritual paths of our children, but we take it too far when we imply that home education is an integral part of the sanctification of women. They might argue that providing their wives with opportunities to study the Bible with other believers is one of the ways they are obeying those verses. It might come down to personal preference and conviction. In that case, we can be at peace knowing that He who began a good work in them is faithful to complete it in them. Without anyone else’s assistance.
I was not home schooled and am a christian. I know I am saved by grace.
I would like to home school my children but my husband has said no.
I help out at their school a lot, I teach them things at home about God that I never got taught but wished I had. Things I learned through hardship, reading the Word and understanding what He was saying to me, because of my relationship with Him.
I will not stand before God and answer for their salvation, but I will stand before Him and answer for whether or not I lead them in the right way. I do not need to home school to do that.
I live in the UK, having moved here from NZ 3 years ago.
I had a very promising career as a paramedic – heck I saved lives for a living and loved it! I was a manager and up for promotion.
BUT, I had asked God what He wanted and as we prepared to move I knew my role was wife and mother.
A lot of people can and have saved lives, I was one of them.
BUT, only ONE person in the WHOLE world is wife to my husband and mother to my children.
That is my most important job at this time – so I am careful that as a non-working woman now I do not fill up my time with things I like, lunching with friends or missions that are good, but rather things I am supposed to be doing as God leads me, well mostly that is what I do! I am after all human and inadequate.
I’m biased as a public school teacher, but I can’t imagine anything more harmful to a child – and a budding Christian faith – than being trapped at home with a mother who doesn’t want to homeschool, or knows that she’s not a good teacher, but is home-schooling out of a misplaced sense of duty to her husband.
“One of the fathers comes home from work every night and does his best to re-educate while the mother has been out and about all day going to Bible Studies, ‘ministering at church’, lunching with friends, and participating in many Godly activities.”
If it takes that long for Dad to “re-educate” his kids, he needs to look at his teaching methods or the example his life is setting because his kids can’t be picking up that many “Anti-Christian” ideas a day to deserve spending evenings in Dad’s “re-education camp” every night. Often, “re-education” can be mis-used as a reason to lecture kids for hours each night which gives the dad a sense of power, but isn’t conducive to actual education.
Let’s be honest, the letter writer is not being fair – at all – to the mother’s daily activities either. There are many, many ministry activities that are highly valuable. Having lunch with friends is not a sin either.
I felt the same way about the letter writer’s comments about what the mom is doing during the day! haha. I have learned that so many stay at home moms who send kids to school are active in that school as volunteers, coordinate many things, and have side ministries that change lives and family’s lives. They become pillars of the school and are able to reach so many people there and in the community because of the investments of their time.
This is what I’m praying God can use me as, as I send my older kids to school this August! And I certainly HOPE I can have some lunch dates with friends too.
I am the one who submitted that question. The point of the question actually has nothing to do with homeschooling. That’s just one example. It could be about what church they attend, whether or not they do family devotions, where they serve as missionaries or anything about which the husband is convicted by the Holy Spirit and Scripture. The question is not about how God will judge the husbands. And the question is not ‘what should the husbands do?’ The question is what should the wives be counseled/encouraged/taught to do? Not what do we try to FORCE them to do but what does the Bible say? What is the most loving thing for me to say that will help them to love their husbands, children and God better? It’s not the best thing for them to just remain in disagreement and be satisfied with that. The Lord wants them to be unified and we want them to enjoy that oneness. What does the Bible say the wives should do? How do you counsel the woman who refuses to budge or compromise or submit? I believe the women reading your blog desire to know how they can love their husbands knowing full well their husbands are not perfect. It’s beginning to feel like you are cultivating a victim mentality rather than encouraging women in how to love the Lord by loving their husbands (Titus 2:3-5). We are all sinned against every day in various ways by numerous people to varying degrees. We need to learn how to respond to that, how to demonstrate God’s love to those who offend us, not how to discern whether or not I am being sinned against. The answer is yes. Yes, you are being sinned against. Now what is the Godly response? Not the ‘protect myself and stand up for ME and demand my rights’ response. The answer is not to accept abuse or enable the sin. Clearly that would grieve the Lord! Accepting abuse and enabling sin is NOT Biblical and it IS sin! So what IS the answer? In your whole response you never addressed what a Godly older woman would say to encourage these younger women in the manner of Titus 2. What is the teaching of kindness that should be on my tongue (Prov.31:26)? And remember, these husbands are not asking for pink fingernails or organic meals or homeschooling per se. I’m talking about anything the husband believes the Lord is requiring of him which would require the time/talents/support/expertise/encouragement of his helpmeet for him to accomplish-which would really be them accomplishing together thereby demonstrating to the world a beautiful example of the love and unity of Christ with the church.
I would not advise them unless they came to me and asked me for my opinion. Meddling is not the answer. See Proverbs 26:17; 1 Peter 4:15′ I Thess. 4:11; Matt. 7:1-5; and Proverbs 20:3 for a sampling.
If a woman did come to me and ask what I thought (and they have), I would give testimony to my own joy in educating my children at home, the resources available, the encouragement that is also available through our local home school convention and support groups, coops, etc. I would encourage her to pray about that opportunity and the impact it may have on her children. But I would not presume to know what God’s will is for her or her family. That is her business before God. How she and her husband work that out between them is also their business unless they invite outside counsel.
Again, the original question was not about homeschooling at all. That was a ‘for instance’. The question I am asking is how a wife should respond to her husband’s Godly convictions when she doesn’t agree or doesn’t want to help him. According to the Bible. The answer you just gave me is to share your experience and your opinion. That’s shifting sand. Is there anything solid we can offer? Are there are no commands or principles or direction or wisdom that can be found in God’s Word to which we can direct her? (Obviously, assume she has asked for counsel.) My desire is not to tell people what to do or to excite them about what works for me and get them to do the same, I want to give them something solid to base their own decisions on. Since a Christian’s chief end is to glorify God, how do we KNOW how to do that? We go to the Bible and do what it says. What does it say to that woman?
The Bible teaches us that we should love the Lord with all our heart, mind, and soul, and love our neighbor as we love ourselves. I would encourage her to do that in all that she does. Whether it be raising children, homemaking, homeschooling, or working as a nurse, teacher or accountant, etc. I don’t want to take God’s Word and make up rules around it like the Pharisees did. That’s called legalism, and Jesus didn’t approve of it.
If you want to give women something solid to base their own decisions on, then give them God’s Word and let the Holy Spirit do what He does best. God is not going to reveal to you or me what He wants that woman to do. Do you trust that God is capable of working in the lives of those women?
Let’s keep our focus on Christ and our own heart relationship with Him, making sure we are finding joy in doing what WE are called to do. That is how we will have the most effective influence on others.
I’m beginning to think you won’t give a straight answer to my question because you don’t like what the Bible says about this. What if one’s calling is to be a counselor or a teacher or a mother? Do we just hand the people who look to us for guidance and wisdom (friends, younger women in the church, our children) a Bible and say, “Here, read this.” God didn’t make us to be each an island. We need each other; we need to learn from each other. Yes, God is capable of working in the lives of other women, and He uses US…Each Other. We need to have solid answers for those who are seeking and struggling. That is one way we love our neighbor as ourselves. I am not suggesting we make up rules and impose them on others. That’s wrong. It’s also wrong to not point others to truth just because some people are legalists. We need to have the love and courage to tell someone something they may not want to hear or may not like if it leads them to the freedom found in Christ which is outlined in His Word. That is LOVE. We need to point them to the principles (if there are no clear commands) in God’s Word pertaining to their situation and then let the Holy Spirit do His work. This is where they will find freedom. It is kindness to point them to freedom. The commands and principles are for our good, to give us life, to bring us joy not to put us in bondage. We should desire to know them and we should love them. What are the principles/commands for a woman whose husband has Godly convictions which He would like her help in accomplishing if she doesn’t want to do it? And then, what are the principles/commands for her if her husband asks her to do something he would prefer but is not necessarily a conviction? Applying those principles will give her true freedom and joy EVEN IF initially it means doing the thing she doesn’t want to do ‘as unto the Lord’. God’s ways work. He asks us to trust Him. We trust him with our soul for eternity, but do we trust Him today even if we’re unsure of the outcome? Enough to obey?
You are asking me questions, I am answering them, but you don’t like my answers. So how about this: why don’t you get out your own Bible and do your own studying on this subject? I trust that God will speak to you through His Word if you are seeking Him sincerely and not with your own agenda in mind.
In addition, I highly recommend the book Accidental Pharisees (see link above). If you are asking your questions humbly and sincerely, and not without ulterior motives of creating chaos, you will be delighted to find some solid answers in that book that you can apply to all kinds of situations. That book was a God-send to me. Really life-changing. You’ll love it!
Pat (and Natalie),
I have hesitated to interject myself into any of the comments/discussions regarding this latest series, first because I am on the lower end of the Titus 2 spectrum, but more so because I have been blessed with a gentle husband who leads clearly and decisively, yet gently, which has given me (gratefully!) experience and perspective that would tend to oversimplify the subject.
However. I think, Pat, perhaps the reason you feel you aren’t getting a clear answer is because Natalie is open to the fact that, though we “wemmicks” don’t always like it, God does sometimes give us wee folks different answers to the same questions. I personally have seen this play out in our church and community many times. And all we can do for others (who perhaps have not asked our counsel), is trust that they are truly submitting their hearts to the Lord, and pray that they will/will continue to do so. And of course, pray for our own hearts, against self-righteousness. (I’m speaking from personal experience on that note, not projecting anything onto you.) Or perhaps sometimes we must pray for our own hearts to feel freedom in what God has burdened us for, in the cases when it seems that others are “doing more.” (Again, personal experience.)
Since you say there are women who have personally approached you for this issue, though, may I offer my .02? As I said, I am still a young wife/mother/Christian, but in the sphere God has placed us, there is a spectrum of Titus 2 women. And so there are women/wives/moms younger than I who ask my advice on similar themes. My story and background is too long for a comment, but the main crux is that I challenge them with the truth that ***when both husband and wife are submitting first to the Lord and then to one another, we ought to be in unity. If there is not unity, then one (or preferably both) ought to drop to their knees daily and ask God for wisdom.***
More specifically in my own married life, I have begged of God often, “Lord, either change my mind and heart, or change his.” And I have felt truly willing (more willing some times than others) for either outcome. God has answered ABUNDANTLY time and time again, with differing outcomes at times. But the point is that HE ANSWERS, and He alone has drawn my husband and I into unity when we submit (bend, yield, give up, lay down) our own will to God’s will first.
I’m not trying to stir the pot, but I haven’t been able to stop thinking about your question/comments. I know there was a time in our past (our situations were actually reversed), when I was so desperately in need of wisdom. The answer for me, for our marriage, was when I began to pray – willingly – for God to change my heart if that was what was needed for my husband and I to be in unity. My love prayed the same, because I told him that was what I was praying, and he was challenged by example to do the same. Again, sometimes my mind was changed, and sometimes my husband’s was.
The more important point though, is that it was not only our minds and choices that were transformed: thinking about praying like this changed our lives. It changed our marriage. And so changed our testimony and witness to the Body surrounding us. And so in gratitude for what God alone has done, I just wanted to quickly share.
That was beautifully put (humility is always attractive) – and wise. I’m so glad you decided to add your input to this discussion. It points once again to the power of Christ in our lives when we humbly seek His will. Your life example speaks louder to those who are younger than words ever will. How we live and how we love will be our testimony and our influence. Amen.
Please know I am in no way trying to cause dissension or push an agenda. I think what’s driving me is this: I have been blessed by your blog for years. You have been an encouragement to me in MANY ways. Lately you have been troubled and questioning. You’ve said things that indicate you have had a huge change of heart. I have understood you to say you used to be a legalist and a hypocrite. Since I used to see eye to eye with you in so many areas this has caused me to examine myself for those same things. However, some of the things you’ve been saying have caused a check in my spirit. My initial thoughts as I read some of your current posts are that your new perspective does not line up with Scripture. I was always under the impression that Scripture was the authority. Is that not what you believe? I was just trying to understand where you’re coming from. I will not trouble you with my questions anymore.
I have always believed that Scripture is our plumb line, and I always will. It is my anchor. In the past two years I have seen much Scripture twisting. The results are tragic. Scripture is not to blame. The twisting of it is.
If I am saying something that does not line up with Scripture, then I invite you to show me. I am open to learning. I love to learn. What is difficult to process are assertions that are not backed up with Scripture, but rather with opinions and personal convictions. I am never troubled by a well laid out argument using all of Scripture. I am challenged and sharpened. But not troubled.
Thank you for your response. I think I see where you’re coming from now. Also, I appreciate your testimony, Lauren. It sounds like you have a wonderful marriage. That is definitely what we wish it would look like for every situation. Your husband is blessed to have a wife that admires and appreciates him and says so.
Natalie, thank you for being open to discussing Scripture. I would like to dig into Scripture further before I respond to your comments to me farther down-thread, as I mentioned I would. (Except this time I won’t give myself a time frame for when I’ll be getting back to you.) 😉
Pat, if you are still reading, I want to thank you for sharing your thoughts. Please know that I think you are an important part of this discussion, and I appreciate that you have stayed with the conversation as long as you have. A lot of what you have written resonates with me, and has encouraged me to dig deeper into the scriptures. That is a blessing.
As a homeschooling failure mom this past year, I can only imagine the hurt I’d feel and the resentment growing stronger with every year of having to dedicate my years of my kids’ childhood to homeschooling, etc. if my husband required me to do it. It’s totally different if you are passionate about it, love it, are called to do it with your family and God gives you the grace to do it because you are following His desire, etc.
When my oldest was to start kindergarten, I felt really strong about homeschooling. My husband did not. He wanted public school, but was not passionate about any of it. As I felt more strongly about it and I would be doing the work, we homeschooled. Great year. For 1st grade, we homeschooled again, but I learned I was not cut out for homeschooling more than 1 child and for it in general (as the subjects got harder, I was too pulled and stressed to do anything well, started feeling resentful of school, felt I was pushing my littles away too much, etc). I went to my husband and was like, “I CAN’T DO IT ANYMORE!!!” He did chuckle a little and tell me I always have to learn the hard way. Anyway, I can only imagine how stressed a mother, who like me, felt the above if her husband demanded she continue. And how much she’d have to fight those feelings of resentment, burdens, etc…
We are ALL going to school this year (when you get one, you get us all) and are very excited and my husband is really supportive.
Anyway, when my husband was not so amped on homeschooling, I had prayed that God either soften his heart toward it or soften my heart to schooling, according to His plan for us. I had heard a pastor say that if 1 spouse will be doing the most work regarding something, then that spouse’s view should way a bit more heavily. It makes sense to a degree, though ideally a decision can be mutual. But for the other times… my husband and I usually go by that naturally. I am blessed!
That was a healthy example of how it can be worked out. Thank you for sharing.
I’d say no one should force the situation on either side to homeschool. It’s a lot of work, takes a heart that wants to do it, and if the person administering school really doesn’t want to be there than the kid knows and it can leave scars with the kids in the long run. Then there is the issue if the mother isn’t working outside the home and the kids are drowning in the educational system their in – finding a way to meet them at their needs may mean the parent that is home has to make an effort to be more involved in the school.
Looking at the comment submitted by the Pat, the person who asked the original question your post is answering, I see a big picture question. After considering the balance that needs to be there for a healthy relationship (husband loving like Christ/selflessly and wife submitting out of love, not compulsion), I think people may wonder how mutual decision-making fits into the framework of a complementarian view. If you believe there is a head/leader/authority, when do you think he can make the final decision because he is in that position much like any leader makes decisions because they simply have to lead (a pastor, business manager, elected official)? Or, are you, in fact, describing an egalitarian view?
I am illustrating a complementarian view minus the abuses it engenders.
I’m interested in how you would answer Stacie’s first question above at 4:39 pm: “If you believe there is a head/leader/authority, when do you think he can make the final decision because he is in that position much like any leader makes decisions because they simply have to lead (a pastor, business manager, elected official)?”
Even leaders do not make decisions unilaterally most of the time. They have boards, counselors, elders, etc. that all weigh in their thoughts. Yes, on rare occasions a leader will need to move forward with a decision without the support of others, but this should be the exception to the rule. When it becomes the rule, we call that kind of leader a dictator.
Every case would be so different. It seems foolish to start examining various scenarios. The only reason I took a closer look at the home education scenario was because that was the one the commenter chose to give as her example. If we were to just take that example again, I would say that if the woman has to do the bulk of the homeschooling, she most certainly should be on board with it.
Taking the examples of a pastor, business manager or elected official – would any one of them force another person to take a position they did not want? I don’t think so. Now Hitler, on the other hand…
Also, I don’t understand your answer to Stacie’s second question. To engender means to cause or be the source of something. What abuses are engendered by complementarianism?
Well, that’s what the whole submit series is all about!
OK, I didn’t state that as clearly as I could have. 😉 I will try again tonight when I have more time, as I’d like to respond to both of your replies to me. (I might put it in one comment this time so we don’t have two separate conversations going.)
Thank you for your replies, Natalie.
Sounds good.
The Bible says that man and wife are one when they marry. It takes time for them to understand that they are one.
That relationship should also be ruled by love and one adapting to one another. It takes communication and selfless love for that to happen. Sometimes the man will relinquish something he believes is the best because the wife begs to differ. Sometimes it will be the wife’s turn. It really depends on their walk with the Lord.
When I became pregnant with our first child I wanted a water birth with a midwife, no interventions, no doctors. My husband works in the medical field he wanted a hospital birth. He didn’t have enough knowledge to have a homebirth. We live in a state where midwives are illegal. My doctor gave me false hopes about having a natural birth in the hospital. Because I was also new at this, I decided to agree with my husband and have baby at the hospital. I hated the whole experience. But baby and I were healthy and fine.
When we got pregnant with the second baby, again I wanted a natural birth. Again my husband said “let’s do the hospital.” So I acquiesced again. Again the experience was not pleasant. But baby and I were healthy and fine.
With the third baby, at about 26 weeks, I had a disagreement with my doctor. I came home and told DH what happened. My husband gave me 3 options: “you can do as the doctor says. You can get another doctor, but he will ask you to do the same as the first doctor. Or you can have the baby at home.” Guess which one I picked?
Yeah, I got to have my baby at home and DH got to catch her. 
It was beautiful! and scary and messy… 
Baby and I were fine.
The fourth one we started at home and ended at the hospital because we both had concerns. Everything turned out fine.
There are other areas in our lives that have worked out like this and are being worked out at the moment. (I didn’t want big house. Husband did. He wants to move to South America. I didn’t. We are in the process of waiting on God to move us there.) We submit to one another when we are not in agreement. WE submit in love and pray for understanding and that the Lord will grant us the desires of our hearts and make our paths straight and let us see eye to eye. Sometimes one spouse will have a revelation of one issue before the other.
Like a child learning to walk, you slow down and wait patiently for them to catch up. You encourage them, you praise them for how well they are doing. Sometimes you have to pick them up and help carry them. But you don’t leave them behind, or drag them along hurting them in the process. (the Lord just gave me this picture!)
A marriage is a relationship. It takes time, love, adaptation, understanding, patience. What to tell a husband? Tell him to pray for his wife, to love her, to encourage her, to talk to her and find out why she doesn’t want to homeschool. Not to change her mind, but to see eye to eye. To understand why she doesn’t agree with him. If it’s God’s will for them to homeschool, they will.
Maybe if the husband keeps helping the kids with homework, is involved with home life and housework, with the kids’ activities, the wife will believe that he will be invested in his kids’ homeschool lives too. I don’t know what her fears are. What are her needs?
One of the reasons my husband wanted a hospital birth was he didn’t know how I was going to react to labor and delivery. He had seen some women freak out and go into screaming fits. He was afraid of the birth itself. He had never seen one. So after a couple of deliveries, he felt comfortable enough to have our baby at home unassisted. WE still did our homework, but we were confident we could do it. We had peace. We were in agreement and saw eye to eye. I bled a bit more than we both expected. So with the 4th delivery, when I began passing blood with every contraction we BOTH decided it was time to go to the hospital to check on the baby. We didn’t want a rupture placenta or some other scary issue happening.
With an ultrasound, we were reassured everything was fine. Bleeding can be normal for some women and/ or deliveries. I was too far along and one hour away from home, and decided to have the baby at the hospital. She was born 1.5 hours later. Au natural. In my favorite birthing position.
We walk together. In understanding. Loving one another.
It’s hard labor but it’s worth it.
Sorry this was soooooo long.
When those men stand before God one day, will God judge them for their wives’ choices? I don’t see that anywhere in the Bible either explicitly stated or implied.
See Genesis 3:17
Adam sinned. He disobeyed a direct command from God. He is not being judged for HER sin. He is being judged for HIS OWN sinful choice to disobey. If Eve was the only one who ate – Adam would have been saved. Not judged for her sin. Try again.
Thank you for the opportunity to “try again”, I would like to do so.
The beginning of Genesis 3:17 :
Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you
Based on the word of God, Adams sin seems to be twofold. 1- Listening to his wife 2- which disobeyed a direct command.
So I do believe (based on scripture) that a husband can be judged for listening to his wife if he goes along with a request of hers that will cause both to sin against God.
He is not being judged for two separate things. IF he was being judged for 1. listening to his wife – and then said “no” to his wife, he would not have sinned. Listening to one’s wife is not a sin. He was judged for listening to his wife by eating. In other words, the listening here means that he took her advice to disobey God. The disobedience to God was the sin.
Likewise, if a wife asks her husband to sin – and he stands there looking at her, listening – and then says, “hmm…I think not dear.” God will not judge him. She may sin, but if he declines to join her – he’s off the hook. Capiche? And if he decides, “Hey – I like that sinful idea! Let’s go for it!” Then he will be judged for his sin. She will be judged for hers.
I’m just not sure where you are getting this idea that we can be judged for someone else’s sin. I’ve honestly never heard that taught in any church or ministry organization.
I’m a trying to look at the word of God. It seems that this is also your goal as well, to not just take what we hear but to be bereans as well. I will get back to you once I find a source who may better be able to explain what I am trying to convey.
Hi I’m back!! I have few little ones hence my delay :). So here is one source who matches the viewpoint i was trying to convey regarding the subject. I think part of the issue really here is a husband who is truly regenerate and one who is faking any way here is source now:
Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood – Piper and Grudem
Ch 3 page 107
But if Adam and Eve fell into sin together, why does Paul blame Adam for our fall in Romans 5:12-21? Why doesn’t Paul blame both Adam and Eve? Why does Genesis 3:7 say that it was only after Adam joined in the rebellion that the eyes of both of them were opened to their condition? Why does God call out to Adam, “Where are you?”Gen 3:9? Why doesn’t God summon both Adam and Eve to account together? Because, as the God-appointed head, Adam bore the primary responsibility to lead their partnership in a God-glorifiying direction.
This may explain why Satan addressed Eve, rather than Adam, to begin with. Her calling was to help Adam as second in command in world rulership. If the roles had been reversed, if Eve had been created first and then Adam as her helper the serpent would doubtless have approached Adam. So Eve was not morally weaker than Adam. But Satan struck at Adam’s headship. His words had the effect of inviting Eve to assume primary responsibility at the moment of temptation. “You decide Eve. You lead the way…..
Page 110
….Gen 3;17
The second important point here is God’s rationale for this punishment. God does not say, “Because you have eaten of the tree which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it’….” God does say, “Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree….” Adam sinned at two levels. At one level, he defied the plain and simple command of 2:17. That is obvious. But God goes deeper. At another level, Adam sinned by “listening to his wife.” He abandoned his headship. According to God’s assessment, this moral failure in Adam led to his ruination.
Oh my homeschooling is hard enough when you feel personally convicted to do it but feeling forced into it via someone else’s conviction? Yikes.
Homeschooling is not the answer to kids spiritual woes. I know I was homeschooled for all the “right” Christians reasons. My parents had a few spiritual blind spots that nudged me down a path of soul sapping legalism and almost through a door away from God. Staying away from public education isn’t a magic fix for keeping you kids in the faith. They simply have to have their own faith fully internalized in order to keep choosing God’s path. Homeschool doesn’t give that, sure it helps, but it in itself is not the key to children choosing God.
Ah…so many thoughts, so little time. This will have to be my wrap-up in this conversation, due to time constraints and my inability to process my thoughts efficiently and get them in print with any coherence. (Something I’ve often struggled with.) Forgive me if this makes no sense.
Natalie, I know you value (as stated in your August 5, 3:33 pm comment) “a well laid out argument using all of Scripture.” I’m sorry that I don’t have the means to do that at this time. I do want to share a few verses, though, and I pray the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth in His timing.
I understand your looking beyond the few verses speaking of wives submitting to their husbands, to include the full counsel of Scripture in our considerations. Scripture interprets Scripture, and I have no problem with your going beyond, for example, Ephesians 5:22 & 24 and Colossians 3:18 when looking at what the Bible says to wives about submission; in fact, it is important to get a broad view of what Scripture says, rather than to narrow our focus when there are more than just a few verses that address any particular issue.
I get that, and wholeheartedly support your decision to look throughout Scripture for answers. I also agree that there are so many scenarios on how submission can play out, that it is not only impractical, but impossible to offer possible solutions to any and every situation one can imagine.
Yet we all know that God created no two people exactly the same. That means husband and wife will not always see eye to eye on every single issue. I’m, of course, not telling you anything you don’t already know. The point I’m trying to make is that it is inevitable that situations will come up where spouses are not in agreement. Do we have something concrete in Scripture that can keep us from flailing in the wind, trying to decide who should submit to whom when we reach an impasse?
Yes, we have the Holy Spirit to guide us (assuming both spouses are believers, of course), but what if we both feel we are indeed hearing from the Spirit, but different things? What then? (I’m asking rhetorically, not necessarily seeking an answer from you.)
My thoughts keep returning to Ephesians 5:23 and 1 Corinthians 11:3. The husband is the head of the wife. Christ is the head of the man. The head of Christ is God.
That is meaty stuff, examining those Scriptures for their full meaning, and I will nowhere near do justice to the passages. But I will submit (can’t think of another word 😉 ) that those verses not only give order and purpose to our lives as we live under authority, but they are also a comfort in times of confusion and conflict.
Let me issue a HUGE disclaimer at this time: in NO WAY am I advocating submitting to abuse. I know that has been the topic of many discussions lately, and not only here. That is its own topic (and a large one) and I don’t intend to address that issue. I am not speaking to those kinds of situations.
My concern, Natalie, is in some of the things you have mentioned in recent posts and replies to your commenters. I don’t have time to go into all of them, and will acknowledge that I haven’t read all your posts and replies this summer (as I was offline for a month early this summer), so I admit I may not have a fully accurate picture of where you’re coming from. However, I do want to address this first paragraph in your reply to me on August 4 at 10:17 pm.
“Even leaders do not make decisions unilaterally most of the time. They have boards, counselors, elders, etc. that all weigh in their thoughts. Yes, on rare occasions a leader will need to move forward with a decision without the support of others, but this should be the exception to the rule. When it becomes the rule, we call that kind of leader a dictator.”
I agree with your first two sentences. I also agree that it is important for a husband to have wise counselors. But as you correctly noted elsewhere in this post or comment thread, ultimately, they cannot force a man or a woman to adopt a certain practice within that man or woman’s household. And we can see that by the order of authority God has put in place as illustrated in the 1 Corinthians passage I referenced above.
It is your third sentence in your reply to me which I quoted above that I really want to take a closer look at. You said, “Yes, on rare occasions a leader will need to move forward with a decision without the support of others, but this should be the exception to the rule.”
I assume you are including husbands when you refer to leaders. What I hear you saying is that it should only be rare occasions when a husband moves forward without the support of others.
However, biblically speaking, though he may choose to listen to counsel by others, he is not necessarily obligated to follow their advice. He is to submit to Christ, his head, and as long as he is doing so, he is not sinning in disregarding earthly figures who are not his head. Does that make sense?
So when you use the word “rare”, as in acting unilaterally (in an earthly sense) should only be done rarely, well, I don’t see that idea in Scripture. When you say “this [moving forward without the support of people who are not one’s head] should be the exception to the rule”, you are stepping into dangerous territory calling something a rule, when the Bible makes no rules about how many times we can act unilaterally.
Do you see the danger this poses? If I decide my husband has moved forward on something one too many times in areas we disagree, where, biblically speaking, there is freedom of choice, then I have the right to say no? As if I’m the final arbiter of whether he’s taken too many turns having his way on issues where we disagree, or he’s stepped over the “rare” line? (And how does one define “rare” anyway?) I am free to not submit because I think he hasn’t submitted to me often enough, or that he’s not loving me in the way I think he should, or as I think Christ says he should, or…or…or?
Which brings me to the verse (actually, two very similar ones) in the book of Judges: “…every man did that which was right in his own eyes.”
We can see how well that turned out. Chaos, confusion and rebellion ensued as the Israelites threw off God’s authority, doing instead what they felt was right in their own eyes.
Is that what we wives want? Our husbands are our God-ordained authority figures. Why is that such a distasteful word? (Authority.) Yes, we are to obey God rather than man, but if our husbands ask us to do something we don’t want to do, but that is not sinful, can we not trust God to work in our husband’s heart? To work out unity in His own will and timing, without taking matters into our own hands and doing what is right in our own eyes based on our own arbitrary standards? (I’m not discounting the importance of communication between husband and wife, BTW, when I talk about trusting God to work in our husband’s heart. Communication with spouse and complete trust in God are both important.)
To conclude, I’ll say that Lauren’s post (August 5 at 11:06 am) presents a beautiful picture of what can be accomplished through prayer and trust in God to work His will and enable unity between a husband and wife. It also reminds me of Isaiah 55:8-9, where God tells us, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
We can’t completely understand God’s ways this side of eternity, but there is joy and peace (verse 12) in everything the Word accomplishes.
And in that light, I believe there is joy and peace in submitting to our husbands as unto the Lord, even when we’re afraid we’re not a good candidate for something our husbands may ask us to do. We are able to “do all things through Christ who strengthens [us].” (Philippians 4:13) He is faithful.
I’ll try to clear up a couple of things that might be confusing.
“I assume you are including husbands when you refer to leaders. What I hear you saying is that it should only be rare occasions when a husband moves forward without the support of others.”
I was actually trying to communicate that it should only be on rare occasions when a husband would move forward without the support of his wife. The husband and wife are one flesh. This means many things, one of which is they should strive for unity in most decisions. The headship of the husband is not a free ticket to be “the boss” over his wife or to make all the decisions unilaterally. He is not her daddy. She is not his child. That is not unity, nor does it reflect Christ and the Church. Yet this abuse of the complementarian view runs rampant in churches. I’m just trying to bring balance to that which I believe the Bible teaches very clearly and over and over.
In a healthy marriage relationship, the headship of the husband is a beautiful thing of love and strength. The wife blossoms in his love. She becomes all that God designed her to be. There will be times when a decision must be made, and they come to a stalemate. Then the man needs to step up and make the decision, considering his wife’s input, of course.
But too often, selfish men take those verses (and conveniently “forget” about all the myriads of other ones) and beat their wives over the heads with them. They make all the decisions and treat their wives like they are dork brains who have nothing to offer but a warm body and food/laundry service. This is not strong love, and the wife wilts away into nothingness and never reaches her full potential as a human being made in God’s image. And when the church backs up the men in these kinds of entitlement behaviors, the men never reach their full potential either. And of course, the children raised in these homes suffer too – many rejecting Christianity altogether, and can you blame them?
I think many women in troubled marriages continue to gut it out thinking God is commanding them to enable their husbands to control them. What they wear. How they do their hair. When they go out. What they buy. Etc. These women think the Bible teaches this garbage, and it doesn’t. I want to defend God’s Word – and point out the ways Christians twist it to gain power over other people. God’s kingdom is marked by humility and love displayed through human beings saved by His grace. Both genders included
You know what’s funny? When I got done typing that marathon comment, I reread it before hitting “Post”, and I thought about adding to the part you quoted (addition in bold), “What I hear you saying is that it should only be rare occasions when a husband moves forward without the support of others. (Including the support of his wife?)”
In other words, I thought you might be talking about wives there, but my post was so awfully long, that I just said “Nah” to adding more.
So, yes, I was thinking of wives there, too, and thought you probably were, as well.
Anyway…
Thank you for your reply. These two statements of yours really sum up a lot of what I was trying to say: “There will be times when a decision must be made, and they come to a stalemate. Then the man needs to step up and make the decision, considering his wife’s input, of course.”
I guess I got mostly caught up in your use of the words “rule” and “rare” when I didn’t see a rule in the Bible about how many times the husband can decide that his will on an area of disagreement is what will be carried out, rather than yielding to his wife’s wishes.
And the other thing with the word “rare” is that that word is quite subjective. It’s not a definite number, but is open to interpretation. When we get caught up in a numbers game (“You’ve had your way WAY more than you let me have my way”), humility goes right out the window, and there is strife, which of course does nothing to assist in that striving for unity that you correctly point out is important in a healthy marriage.
It is easy for all of us, men and women, to get caught in a mindset where we think of ourselves first, rather than esteem the other. Philippians 2:3 is very applicable here: “Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.”
I’m not saying we wives need to be doormats, but I do want to emphasize the importance of communication. But at the end of the road, if we reach a stalemate, then, as you pointed out, the husband needs to step up and make the decision. If we don’t communicate our wishes with him, then he is not able to make the decision while considering our input because there was no input on our part!
All that to say that your friendly, respectful dissenter finds a lot to agree on in your most recent reply to me.
It also makes me aware of how grateful I can be for the blessing of a church home that values not only its men, women and children, but most of all, the Word of Truth.
Finally, Natalie, let me just say that I hear pain in your voice. I am sorry for the hardships you are enduring. Though I sometimes (maybe often? I’m not keeping track) come here with dissenting comments, please know that I’ve been lifting you up to the Lord in my prayers, and will continue to do so as He brings you to mind.
Blessings to you as you seek to be nourished and refreshed in the Word. May God bless you with abundant peace.
Oh, 6 Arrows, I’ve never felt bad about your comments. I love them. They help me think through stuff. I want this blog to be a conversation. You know? I don’t have all the answers. This is my place to dump my thoughts and hopefully we can all sharpen each other. I love and appreciate you!!! (((hugs)))
Awww…you’re sweet.
I love you too, Natalie! And if I ever get to your area, I might just look you up…I’d love to sit down to chat with you, and then I can give you a real hug. 😉
Hi Natalie–great post as usual!
To me this is the biggest issue:
If two people aren’t agreeing, and both are Christians, then there are only three options: either he’s not hearing from God, she’s not hearing from God, or they’re BOTH not hearing from God.
Submission (as in her giving in to him) doesn’t fix that. That’s a pretty serious issue, and the Bible very clearly says that we are to wrestle in prayer to discern His will.
Saying that a wife should just go along when she doesn’t feel right is saying that God would potentially want a couple to do something that is outside His will–because what if she’s right, or what if NEITHER is right?
My husband and I have always believed that if we’re not in agreement, then that’s a sign we should pray more. And we’ve always prayed that if we ARE in agreement, and it’s not of God, that He would cause us to disagree until we found the solution.
People miss the big picture: God wants two people, in unity, serving Him, not two people just letting the husband be the boss, even if that means the couple regularly and consistently misses His will for their lives. The overarching value is following God’s will, not holding on to an idea of male leadership that precludes that.
I’m not sure why people would be happy in a situation when you don’t agree. Doesn’t that just mean a greater call for prayer?
AMEN! It is helpful to hear your perspective on this. You are coming from the standpoint of a woman in a healthy marriage relationship. This is not the case for so many women – and sometimes they don’t even know what “normal” is because God’s Word has been twisted to support a self-centered, dominant male perspective. I hesitate to say this, but I think it’s a brainwashing, of sorts. I know I’ve had to be “deprogrammed” in order to recover and heal in my own journey. It has confirmed my conviction that God’s Word is always our plumb line. Not just verses here and there, but the entire counsel of God for all human beings regardless of race or gender or position.
I am a young wife and know that I have many more things to learn. Even though I was raised in church and taught the Bible from a young age I was not raised in a “submission” culture. In fact, my grandmother loves to say that the husband might be the head but the wife is the neck and can turn the head anyway she wants. When my husband and I found out we were expecting our first child we knew we wanted to raise our family to honor God. I had always thought submission to be for weak women. I had friends who were raised to believe that the husband was God in their family and no matter how ridiculous or mean his commands were they were to be followed without question. I felt sorry for those women. But I was raised with no submission and really didn’t want to raise my family in that chaos. Turn on the TV at night and we can see the perfect example in sitcoms of a wife who does not submit to her husband. I don’t want my child’s father to be that guy. So, we started studying Scripture and praying.
Ephesians 5:22-24 “Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.”
Marriage ultimately is not for the participants. Marriage is a picture of salvation to the lost world. Jesus loved us so much that He gave His life for us. Husbands are to lead their wives with that same kind of love. However, we do see in Scripture that Jesus did have final say over the church. Think about the woman caught in adultery in John 8. Jesus protected her from the Pharisees and gave her forgiveness BUT He commanded her to leave her life of sin. I fully believe God created a helpmeet to have a voice. God gave women a brain too. But God designed us with different roles and when we try to alter those roles to either extreme we will have chaos. God has placed a huge burden of leadership on our husbands and when those husbands feel God has called the family to a certain thing the wife needs to respect that. If our hearts don’t want to follow that direction then we need to take the time to pray together about the call. And if no compromise can be reached then someone has to have the final say.
“If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. ” Mark 3:24-26
This has turned out to be a lot longer than I originally intended. I was not raised in an extreme conservative lifestyle as you once embraced. In fact, when I first started reading your blog I thought you were very judgmental and extremely harsh. However, I found nuggets of wisdom in your words. Now, as I read your words through a lifestyle change, I would caution you to not automatically think the opposite of everything you once believed is right. My husband and I have found in our five short years of marriage that when we embrace God’s roles we are much more satisfied and definitely have a better witness to our lost relatives and friends. I would never condone a wife to submit to abuse. In fact I have a friend who is returning to an abusive situation and it is taking all of my willpower to not go physically take her out of it. But submission in the sense of Christ and the church is vital to not only a healthy marriage but a healthy witness. I know my words are feeble and I hope to not offend you or anyone else reading. I just want to share some encouragement to women having a hard time grasping the art of submission.
Submission is a theme that runs throughout Scripture, and its “art” is for all human beings to master, including, but not limited to, wives.
A humble, God-fearing husband wouldn’t forcehis wife to do something she was strongly against, especially when that decision directly affects her responsibilities and not his. He would understand that is a recipe for disaster. Christ never forces, but rather invites the Church. By the same token, we need to remember that the analogy of Christ and the Church breaks down when it comes to the fact that Christ is sinless while husbands are not. Christ is all-knowing and full of wisdom, and that is why He has “final say.” Husbands are limited in their knowledge and wisdom and must rely on both God and the helper God gave to them—the wife. But God is still the One who has “final say.” Not people.
I’m not saying there aren’t times when, in a healthy marriage relationship, a husband might want to home school and ask his wife to consider it. She really doesn’t want to do it, but she agrees to try it for a year in order to honor her husband’s desires. This is right and good. All I’m arguing is that this may not be the case in all situations.
i think your last statement here was what Pat was originally trying to get at. Nonetheless this dialogue has given us all who are involved something to think about!
As a mother being forced to homeschool by her husband, I can say forcing a mother to homeschool is not the answer. Four years ago I agreed that it might be the best thing for our family. After years of discussions, frustration and lots of prayer, I am convinced that my children would be better served in a brick and mortar school. Not only because I feel that qualified and trained teachers would be better at it than I can be, but because I have become inpatient with the kids and angry at my husband for only considering his point of view in this situation. My 8 and 9 year old children don’t like homeschool, they view me as a mean teacher instead of a loving mother that teaches them. This is putting a strain on my family. I would suggest that a mother and father make this decision together, neither should force such a big decision on the other.