God has a sense of humor. Here I was, poised to write another post in my “Deprogamming” series—this time on the subject of AUTHORITY—and lo and behold, a lengthy comment on an old post comes into my email box from someone’s husband. He brought up so many things I wanted to address, I almost wondered if it was a set up.
Before we start:
1. His comment was given on an old pendulum post of mine, To Correct or Not to Correct Your Husband. If you haven’t read that yet, you might want to find out what he’s responding to. (I actually couldn’t figure it out myself, so if you have any clues for me, I’m all ears.)
2. I am not publishing this comment on that post. I’d rather address it here since the timing is so perfect.
3. His words are in black, and my commentary is in red.
4. It came in one long paragraph. I had to break it up to make it easier to read. Tricky when I’m also juggling my own commentary. If it seems broken in weird places, that’s because it probably is.
Here we go:
Excellent article for both husband and wives. I am a husband and a father of two children. There are two comments i want to make
1. Concerning a wife rebuking her Husband – We have to be very careful here when we use the word rebuke because some can take it that a wife can give sharp correction to her husband. (I didn’t use the word “rebuke,” God did, and I merely quoted Him: Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. (Luke 17:3) That aside, how do we prevent others from taking things the way they want to take them? We have no control over other people and how they take things. Trying to control others is a futile exercise and not part of our job description as Christians – men or women.)
There is a general sense in reading scriptures that this type of rebuke is reserved for one in authority, (in other words, Scripture doesn’t specifically say people in authority can give “this type” of (sharp) correction, but it generally implies that? When I read verses such as the one I quoted above, I’m not seeing authority in there at all. I’m seeing brothers. And the word “brothers” is not a gender distinctive word in that context. It means those who are fellow believers, and that includes women. (Wives, even!) which the woman has not been given by God over the man. (In other words, since women have not been put in authority over men, they are not allowed to give “sharp” corrections to them (“rebukes”)? BUT, sharp corrections are the privilege of those in authority only, which would include men over women? You believe this? I could be totally high on drugs here, but I’m guessing this assertion of yours is probably a common belief among a lot of men. It’s just a guess based on conversations I’ve had with many verbally abused women. Christian women with “godly” Christian husbands who take this “sharp” correction privilege very seriously. I wonder. Is God impressed with any Wemmick who sharply corrects another one? Male or female?)
We are all under authority in one way or another, whether by our husbands, the boss at work, the gov’t etc. The Lord expects that every individual should obey (actually, there are qualifications for this throughout Scripture) and have respect for one in authority, man or woman. So the scriptures are not at the root dealing with husband v.s wife but in essence authority, as all authority is from God, whether good or bad. The scriptures is very serious when it comes to authority. We see that especially in the old testament. But i find that many Christians here in America are not.
In attempts not to offend or rub women the wrong way (ahem) I find that pastors or teachers very seldom(in my experience) teach women how to subject themselves to the authority of their husband. (Do you believe it should be whole lot more?) Instead there is a lot of focus on what men should do. (Sounds like you might have a good church – one that challenges the men (leaders) to actually take the lead and be like Christ. To be humble. To rise to their high calling of servant leadership. To be strong. To be what they ought to be so their women and children can blossom (the Bible calls it “responding”) under their strength and love. If that’s the case, why not applaud that kind of church? Maybe I’m reading you wrong, but you don’t sound inspired. And if you’re not, why not? And why is it that some men get all geeked about being a man when it comes to the privilege of giving “sharp rebukes” – but when it comes to this “loving your wife as Christ loves the church” stuff that your church happens to harp on overly much, the excitement just drains away?)
No one wants to offend. Everyone, including many Christians want to be politically correct. (With the exception of all those rebellious wives that need more teaching on how to subject themselves to their sharply-rebuking-husbands-in-authority, huh? Those women are offensive, are they not? I mean, they aren’t being very politically correct, right? Why do I not hear some applause for them? Do you think it’s bad to be politically correct if you are a man who should speak out about those rebellious women, but it’s good to be politically correct if you are a woman who should keep her mouth shut?)
I agree with most of what i read in this article about women correcting their husbands and giving counsel. After the Holy Spirit this is a woman’s role as seen in the proverbs about the virtuous woman. To this end I believe women should educate themselves in the word of God so that they can give their husbands the right counsel (and men should educate themselves in the Word of God too, no? You know, so they can respond well if their wives do give them the right counsel in exactly the right way?)
However, this correction and counsel should not be confused with the type of rebuke and correction reserved for one in authority such as sharp rebuke. (Ah ha! So you do believe that sharp rebukes are reserved for men to give to women. Wowzer Bowzer.)
For example, someone won’t listen so you rebuke them sharply. (Let me see if I’m tracking with you. If someone under your authority (namely, your wife, since this article is about husbands and wives) “won’t listen” – you rebuke her sharply? Because Scripture gives you that right? Are you serious? And you write that “women should educate themselves in the Word of God?” I’m trying to hold myself together here. I may need a little sharp correction myself pretty soon.)
I think this is where people (you?) have an issue with a woman rebuking their husbands. It is in the area of sharp rebuke and not counsel and correction. (The post never once encouraged anyone – men or women – to sharply correct. So I’m mystified about your reasons for writing such a lengthy comment about how men in authority have the right to sharply correct while women don’t. And while I’m thinking of it, I’ll just go down a little rabbit trail here and point out that when anyone reproves a fool, whether they do it gently or sharply, their reproof will be rejected and stomped on. See the entire book of Proverbs for more information on this phenomenon. Both women and men ought to rebuke one another when necessary and do it gently. That is the loving thing to do. That brings us together as we iron out conflict. And gender has nothing to do with it. The wise among us, whether they are male or female, will respond with humility and grow wiser. The fools among us, whether they are male or female, will respond proudly and grow more foolish. So a person under authority (like a wife, for example) could gently admonish—just as gentle as a little butterfly—and still be swatted down like an annoying bug and told she is being rebellious and arrogant to so harshly rebuke her “godly” husband. I know, I know, it’s a rabbit trail, but I’m just sayin’.)
Jesus never rebuked his parents in this sense. Neither did Jesus rebuke the High priest when he was slapped and insulted. He subjected himself to all authority as an example to us. Being God in all sense yet he as an example subjected himself to all authority, including the authority of his parents. He corrected his parents and the high priest with all respect for authority, not in a sharp and demanding demeanor. (So He is an example for all Christians. Not just women, but men too. Please, oh please tell me you believe that.)
John the Baptist corrected Herod for taking his Brother’s wife. Nathan rebuked David for taking Bathsheba. There are many other examples of people under authority rebuking or correcting the authority. However, there is no Godly example of this rebuke being sharp. (Who is saying people under authority have the right to give sharp rebukes? Where are you getting this from?)
Again the scriptures tells us that even when Michael the Archangel contented with SATAN for Moses body that he simply said “Satan the Lord rebukes you”. This is SATAN the most evil of evil. Yet he had authority in heaven before he was cast out. And so the scriptures in using this example instructs us to be careful in how we relate to authority. Here is an example of the apostle Paul exercising authority over a disobedient church after gently trying to persuade. “Some of you have become arrogant, as if I were not coming to you. 19But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. 20For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. 21What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a rod of discipline, or shall I come in love and with a gentle spirit?” 1 Corinthians 4: 18-21. This level of rebuke is reserved for the one in authority. But too often I find Christian individuals not only sharply rebuking authority in their displeasure but also becoming blatantly disrespectful with their choice of words which is clearly against scriptures; whether it is the wife in relation to her husband, an individual to their Boss or Gov’t, etc. This is sinful. (And so is lying and fornication and murder and thinking a bad thought. What I’m still wondering is – how does any of this relate to the premise of the article which is that wives can and should correct their husbands at times?)
Satan is always attacking authority (and one of the ways I’ve seen him attacking it is by getting arrogant, self-centered, foolish (those are all words found in Scripture, btw, to describe certain kinds of people) “authorities” to misuse it, abuse it, and twist it into something it isn’t) and I find that the authority of not only the Husband in the home, but also the gov’t is being attacked by the modern day church. This is some food for thought. I have more to write but will continue later…(And who knows? Perhaps another blog post will come of it.)
So there you go. Just FYI, these are actually the kinds of things verbal abusers argue. Please, please, please do not misunderstand me. I’m not saying this guy is a verbal abuser. He’s probably just a sweet, innocent victim (with very bad timing) of the Female Blog Monster (hi there). What I AM saying is that he makes the kinds of arguments men make who are looking for justification to verbally abuse their “underlings.” It all sounds so spiritual and “Biblical” which is why so many Christian (not perfect) women who long to do what is right get confused and stuck. It is for the sake of those women that I write my response. (God bless your pee-pickin’ socks off. This IS a blog for women, after all.)
Let’s talk more about this next time.
Question: Want to get into the conversation? Be aware (beware?) that comments are always potential fodder for future posts! I do respect your privacy, though. You can leave a comment by clicking here.
That’s fascinating. My husband is a quiet kind of leader in our home. Must of the sharpness comes from me. (I know that is hard to believe, but it’s true! I’m not the hothead I used to be, but I’ve still got miles to go in the sanctification of my tongue.) I don’t consider sharpness to be the mark of authority. Quite the opposite, actually. Someone who speaks with authority needs to do so patiently and gently, no excuses. You’re right. Those are the excuses of a controlling, abusive person. I can’t imagine such excuses coming from the lips of my gentle rebuker. When I rebuke him, I try to remember that we don’t rebuke to control, but rather to bring our brothers and sisters back into harmonious fellowship with Christ and with the Church. If the point of the rebuke is to control, it’s best left unsaid entirely.
Yes, wives (especially those of us who have been raised in the faith while our husbands weren’t, so may have a little more insight about spiritual things at times) are permitted to rebuke our husbands in love. Sometimes we’re the only ones who can! Our husbands must do the same for us, and I think they have double responsibility for doing it wisely and gently. They have headship, and they need to be very aware of their fallibility, lest they harm their charges. (That goes for moms rebuking their children, as well. Stepping on my own toes this morning.)
Thank you for bringing up a point here, too, Cindy. My post is an attempt to correct a major swing in a bad direction – one that I’ve seen first hand in several lives when it comes to the whole husband/wife thing. But there are men out there who are gentle and kind, and the wife is the one who needs to be more careful with “sharpness.” I fall more into speaking sharply than gently myself. (Ya think?!)
“I try to remember that we don’t rebuke to control…” That’s a key point there for all of us to keep in mind!
Wow. I am so pleased that there are people teaching women God’s word. The middle ground (that God wants) between feminism or being a doormat.
Thank you.
I am glad to have learned long ago, by studying my bible and reading it in context, following the 9 rules of interpretation for theologians (i.e. read in context, who is speaking and what is their culture/background, who are they speaking to, their culture/background etc) what God expects of me as a christian wife , even though my husband is not a follower of Christ.
And by the by, from the man’s comments, Jesus has all authority over everyone. I think he did not respond to the high priest because He stood there for us, our sin and our sin had not answer or excuse.
“Jesus has all authority over everyone. I think he did not respond to the high priest because He stood there for us, our sin and our sin had not answer or excuse.”
Great point, Lisa! I love that. It’s a sweet truth.
I’m glad I wasn’t a fly on the wall in your house after you read that!
Honestly, I’m a little stuck on the difference between a rebuke and a sharp rebuke. Perhaps a sharp rebuke is one done in public? It seems to me this guy seems to be saying the only type of correction that should come from a wife is “Honey, you accidentally made a wrong turn. Probably because you’ve been working so hard and dealing with so much stress.” Or perhaps “Dear, I know you have a lot of really important things on your mind, but I think you may have forgotten that you have a dentist appointment today.” So I’m curious what he would suggest the wife do when her husband drinks too much alcohol – too often – spending too much money on it that isn’t there. Or perhaps the issue isn’t alcohol but drugs, or pornography, or deciding to believe and teach their children some heretical teaching that goes against God’s Word. What should she do then?
Looking forward to Part Two!
Right. There has to be a way to work toward solving conflict, and fortunately there is in Matthew 18. And that teaching isn’t just for unmarried people or people in conflict with other people they aren’t married to. In other words, marriage doesn’t trump the Word of God on relationship issues.
If you are dealing with a fool whether it is your child, your husband, your sister, or your “friend,” then the book of Proverbs is your guide, along with the example of Christ in His dealings with the Pharisees. I recommend the book Foolproofing Your Life by Jan Silvious. I want to write a post about that book in the near future. It’s so, so good for people stuck in bad relationships – and no matter what they do, change never happens. There’s a reason for that, and it’s usually not the person who is desperately seeking change.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0307458482/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=31048668085&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8988075048812871426&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_9ef8togwtm_b
You were so much gentler than I would have been, and God bless you for it!
Don’t think too highly of me. I first wrote out of the “fullness of my heart,” and then I did a lot of editing. 🙂
I think a lot of this whole “sharp” rebuking boils down to definitions. What exactly does “sharp” mean? (Also the definition of rebuke. What’s the Biblical difference between rebuke and admonish, for example?) It’s easy to say that a sharp rebuke is always a harsh, unkind, unloving rebuke (Proverbs does say that the words of some are like a sword, in a negative sense). The Bible also says that God’s Word is as SHARP as a double-edged sword. Could it be that we must wield the power of our words for the good of the other? To use our words not as a fleshly sword that lashes out each time I feel insecure, hurt, offended, etc., but to submit our words to The Sword so that His Truth will complete the work that He wants— and yes, that will hurt. I think if I lovingly speak the Word of God to anyone, it will cut deep. A wise person will be grateful, knowing that it is the scalpel of God’s own Word that hurts, but for the person’s GOOD, not harm. We also see that Jesus spoke in pretty surprising ways to his disciples and to the religious leaders of his day. I would say he spoke sharply with them at times. But this again goes back to the definition of sharp, as Jesus obviously never uttered a single word that was not done in perfect love and truth. I also think it has to be placed in context. We cannot take an example of Jesus speaking to the Pharisees, for example, and say that then it’s okay for husbands to speak that way to their wives, it’s a completely different relationship! Oh the messes we get into when we take Biblical examples and apply them across the board. We Wemmicks so easily define words to suit our beliefs, instead of really digging deep to find out what it IS the Bible is saying. Very, very dangerous consequences.
I LOVE the “point” you put on this subject! 🙂 I do have to say though that some people are married to modern day Pharisees who never, ever (seriously, never) admit to any wrong doing. And we all know nobody can be that perfect, right? Proverbs calls these folks (whether they are men or women) “fools.” I refer readers to my post here for more information on this and a link to an excellent series that discusses this from a Biblical perspective. http://visionarywomanhood.com/living-chronically-self-centered-spouse/
“The [gentleman] doth protest too much, methinks.”
Great responses!
LOL! My thoughts exactly! 🙂
Something tells me that Mr. Commenter won’t be making good on his statement to continue his thoughts at a later date.
Swallowing my fear that I may receive a sharp rebuttal, I must admit I’m a little less “with you” on this one. Of course that may be because I have a husband who is the pendular (is that even a word?) opposite of a controlling husband. BUT, to give myself a bit of credibility, I had a Dad who tried to be very controlling. He eventually gave up and learned that I wasn’t such a waste of womanhood as he once thought and we were able to salvage a decent relationship before he died.
I grew up in a church where women were to be silent in the assembly, and only men were preachers, elders, and deacons. I still attend that same denomination. In all my 45 years there have only been 3 men who tried to exert control over me in that denomination… my dad, an older friend, and another man who tried to control EVERYONE. As I said, Dad gave up, the older friend backed off because I told him that he crossed a line, and the other man… I refuse to give him my ear. It is not uncommon for a couple men in our congregation to ask my thoughts on lots of issues (I’m not entirely sure why, but my husband seems to think that it is because I am not afraid to look at things non-traditionally and am *certainly* not afraid to say what I think). But here’s the thing…
I’ve commented before that it has been my experience that it is women who do the most false teaching in this matter. I cannot tell you how many times I have been chastised by women for not being as submissive as I should be. Truth is, they were 100% right, but their brand of submission never seemed godly to me because it allowed their husbands to continue in their sin decade after decade. It tends to be the women who don’t quite know what to do with my less-than-traditional attitude.
I just don’t think that the role women have played in the perpetuation of this should be overlooked here. We need to pull up our big girl britches and take some of the heat.
And also, while I feel brave, we women need to tell our daughters to stop marrying jerks (I wanted to use another word). If he is a jerk before the wedding, it will only get worse. And if he is a non-Christian jerk, converting him after the wedding isn’t going to make him a non-jerk. It’s likely to make him even more dangerous.
Still sittin’ in the peanut gallery, trembling as I work it out, hoping to sharpen my iron 😉
I’m totally with you, Joanne, but I wouldn’t have been even five years ago. I was one of the women who believed women should submit no matter what. If your husband said it – GOD said it. Very black and white. My mom did not raise me that way, but I took everything I learned in hyper-conservative circles to the nth degree. God has had to wake me up to see how destructive this is to BOTH men and women. (I’ve seen this first hand, and it is devastating.) It does enable men to continue in sin and pride, which is tragic for them, and it encourages misogyny which is obviously not Biblical.
“I just don’t think that the role women have played in the perpetuation of this should be overlooked here. We need to pull up our big girl britches and take some of the heat.”
You’ve brought up SUCH a good point. I think a blog post needs to be written on it…
Whew! I’m thankful you understood my comment for what it was… a “there’s a flip-side to this” comment. The ideology of tyrannical rule is bad, regardless of the person’s gender.
Oh my, yes, yes, yes! 🙂
I couldn’t add anything to add to this, except that I appreciate your courageous, clear, and BIBLICAL thinking. So I just want to pretend I can contribute to such a great discussion!
I was raised in an interesting juxtaposition: my mother lived a very conservative, homeschooling lifestyle, and paid great lip service to women at home, but now that I think about it, the only thing I’ve ever heard her say about submission (perhaps a topic she didn’t like much!?!) was, “It doesn’t mean you just shut up”. And, certainly, no. But twelve years into my own marriage now, to a very quiet-natured but GODLY and GENTLE man–with iron convictions, nonetheless–and I just want to say…actually, it’s just good manners. Or humility. Or grace, even undeserved grace! and forgiveness. I don’t think I’ll ever have my sinful carnality under enough control to think I have the right to rebuke “sharply”. But, I’m sure there will be people who think I do. Jesus’ life is a pretty good example–wasn’t he incredibly gentle, where the rest of us would have been flippantly curt? And then, pretty hard at times, which is why we all cringe a little when he looks at Peter and says, “get behind me, Satan”?
So true!
“John the Baptist corrected Herod for taking his Brother’s wife. Nathan rebuked David for taking Bathsheba. There are many other examples of people under authority rebuking or correcting the authority. However, there is no Godly example of this rebuke being sharp. (Who is saying people under authority have the right to give sharp rebukes? Where are you getting this from?)”
I have to say I disagree with both of you, here. If you don’t think Nathan’s rebuke of David was “sharp”, I’m not sure what would be. Same goes for John the Baptist. And oh my, which of us hasn’t squirmed reading Jesus’ rebuke of his mother and brothers? The Bible definitely shows us example after example of “sharp rebuke”, and while we are also exhorted to correct gently, that does not mean there isn’t a place for sharp rebuke. I think sometimes we’ve read these stories so many times that we lose the sting, the shock value of what is actually being said. These were intense corrections.
Here’s the thing: we like to pass the blame every time we are confronted with our own sin. And a major way we do that is by accusing those in authority over us of correcting us in a sinful way. Let’s be real here. Everything we do (and everything our husbands, pastors, elders, wives, children, etc, do) is affected by sin. And tinged by sin. If you have ever doled out discipline with NO SIN on your own part, raise your hand. Haha, right? But as parents, we often think we cannot discipline our children until we have our own sin completely under control.
God has placed us in authority over our children, and we are to discipline, even as fallen parents. We fall so short of the Type–that is, the Father from whom all fatherhood gets its name. But we must not wait to discipline perfectly, otherwise we will never discipline at all.
The same goes for our elders and pastors. If they were to wait to preach or correct or train in righteousness until they could do so without sin, they would be paralyzed to carry out their calling.
I realize this is a bit of a rabbit trail, but bear with me a little longer. This side of heaven, every correction, rebuke, and training will fall so short of perfect and sinless. But sin (or even just plain “sharpness”) on the part of the rebuker does not negate the rebuke. Sometimes we need to sift the words of those in authority over us and take what is good and leave what is bad (or simply a misunderstanding or a personal prejudice or an overstatement of the facts or not applicable to our situation or….the list goes on and on).
But please, BEWARE if every correction you receive you are able to discount as “abuse” because it was carried out with sin. We need to be very careful labeling correction as “abuse,” not because abuse doesn’t exist (everywhere that authority exists, abuse of authority exists–in the church, in the homeschool community, in parachurch organizations… remember, authority corrupts, but absolute authority corrupts absolutely), but because our culture labels any exercise of authority as abuse, and we are totally susceptible to believing the lies of our culture. We are so immersed in it, we breathe it in like a fish takes to water. Right?
And this is why it is so important that our authorities are themselves under authority. These structures are there for accountability, and if your authority has no one to exercise authority over HIM, then watch out. Our pastors must be in submission to their board of elders, our husbands must be in submission to their board of elders, mothers must be in submission to their husbands and their churches, etc.
I completely agree with you, and I thank you for your comment. I think the confusion lies in the word “sharp” as one other commenter noted. If sharp means to the point and firm, then yes, rebukes that are sharp are not necessarily sinful (although I appreciate your pointing out that we can’t always know our own motives, and everything we do is tainted by sin), but if sharp means nasty, then nobody, whether they are over or under authority, should be “sharply” (sinfully) rebuking.
Personally, the feeling I got from the gentleman that wrote the original comment was that he wanted license to be “sharp” with his “underlings,” and he wanted his subordinates to “keep their mouths shut and submit already.” It was that attitude of “sharpness” I was addressing. 🙂